November 26, 2022 marks the one-year anniversary of Stephen Sondheim's death, who died in 2021 at the age of 91. The eight-time-Tony-winning titan of the American theatre was productive up until his death, checking in on the Company revival on Broadway and working on a new musical (叠耻帽耻别濒 with David Ives). In between, he was conducting interviews from his home in Roxbury, Connecticut. One of those interviews is the foundation for the new book Finale, Late Conversations with Stephen Sondheim by New Yorker writer D.T. Max.
Over the course of the last three years of Sondheim's life, Max conducted numerous interviews with the composer, for a profile to be published at the premiere of Sondheim's new musical. Those interviews鈥攚ith Sondheim relaxed, thoughtful, and sardonic鈥攁re part of Finale (a portion was previously ). Below, Sondheim reflects on Merrily We Roll Along and that time Meryl Streep starred in The Frogs.
On Merrily We Roll Along:
Stephen Sondheim: Up until a few years ago, I had never re-used a trunk tune.
D.T. Max: Did you call it 鈥渁 trunk tune鈥�?
Yeah, you have a trunk in the attic with all of your鈥攕ome writers have a bottom drawer in the den. My trunk, unfortunately, is a briefcase. [We laugh.] A melody in Bounce was taken from a version of Assassins, for a song called 鈥淚t鈥檚 in Your Hands Now.鈥� But it鈥檚 a very rare case. Music has just as much flavor for its purpose as prose does, so, you know, a tune that fits Passion is unlikely to be a tune that will fit the atmosphere of Merrily We Roll Along.
For you, which comes first, the music or the lyrics?
Oh, they come together.
Merrily is the show where whatever period of your life you see it in, it means something different, because that鈥檚 what it鈥檚 about. I鈥檝e had a lot of people say, 鈥淢y God! I feel so differently about it.鈥� And I鈥檓 not talking about good or bad different鈥攋ust their emotional reaction.
I always cry at the climax of 鈥淥pening Doors,鈥� when they say, 鈥淲e鈥檒l worry about it on Sunday.鈥� I identify with the show very intimately. It relates to my life. It鈥檚 not about my life, but it relates. And gosh, you know, it just touches me. Also, I love George鈥檚 writing so much. George Furth [the book writer] is one of the most underrated writers in the American theatre.
Is Merrily one of the shows you feel most close to?
It鈥檚 one, certainly. Well, partly because it鈥檚 always been slapped around, and you tend to like the child who gets the least attention the most, you know? So I keep wanting people not only to like it, but to appreciate George鈥檚 work. It鈥檚 the Dickensian child in the corner.
On how Sondheim met Meryl Streep:
D.T. Max: How did you meet? Through Into the Woods?
Stephen Sondheim: Noooo!
Meryl Streep: Long before that!
Tell me how you met.
Streep: I was in a production of The Frogs, which was at Yale when I was a first-year student. And I was in the chorus. And he was very legendary.
Sondheim: It was 1973. It took place in the Yale swimming pool.
And you spotted her on the chorus?
Streep: No, no, I don鈥檛 think he even noticed me. But it was really hilarious. There was a lot of vying to get into the chorus from the women in the drama school because most of the cast were young men in bathing suits. Everybody wanted to be in the chorus! [Laughs]
Sondheim: The Yale swimming team played the frogs.
Streep: And they were fantastic.
And when you made Into the Woods, you probably didn鈥檛 see a lot of each other either, right? Because you weren鈥檛 on the set.
Sondheim: We did at the beginning, because I wrote a song for her.
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I listened to it last night鈥攖he bonus track. [The song is called 鈥淪he鈥檒l Be Back.鈥漖
Sondheim: I love it.
Were you sad that it didn鈥檛 wind up in the movie?
Streep: I was, but I really understood why, thematically.
Sondheim: Me too.
Streep: It made great sense.
Sondheim: I think, in fact, when I wrote it, I said, 鈥淵ou鈥檙e going to cut this song, because it is going to hold up the action. And it鈥檚 wonderful to have her sing a solo, but . . .鈥� And sure enough, they cut it.
You sing it so beautifully.
Sondheim: Yeah. But you can always tell when you鈥檙e writing something鈥攚hether it鈥檚 good or bad. I learned that from Oscar Hammerstein, who was completely ruthless about cutting songs. When they wrote Oklahoma! their big song was a song called 鈥淏oys and Girls Like You and Me,鈥� which was played in the overture, sung in the first act, played in the entr鈥檃cte, and reprised in the second act. [He pauses for effect.] And they cut it in New Haven.
Streep: Wow! Let鈥檚 get a hold of it!
Sondheim: Well, it eventually ended up in an MGM movie, and Judy Garland sang it, and then it was cut.
But you autographed Meryl鈥檚 sheet music for that song, right? With the inscription 鈥淒on鈥檛 fuck it up鈥�? I read this鈥�
Sondheim: How did you find that?
It鈥檚 online.
Sondheim: She must have told somebody. I didn鈥檛 tell anybody.
It popped right up!
Sondheim: He spends his life looking at chat rooms and YouTube . . . but no, he鈥檚 really a literary person. [I鈥檓 being teased.]
I use it to figure out where my kids are. [Streep and Sondheim laugh.] So, you guys have no current plans to collaborate on anything at the moment?
Sondheim: No, I wish we did.
Streep: I鈥檝e written a new thing, Steve. [Laughs]
Sondheim: Well, in actuality鈥攚e actually discussed something in London. But I鈥檓 not gonna tell you what it is.
Streep: I鈥檓 hoping. I鈥檓 sitting on my hands and hoping.
Sondheim: I鈥檓 thinking. I have actually given some thought to it.
A full-length theatrical work with music?
Sondheim: I haven鈥檛鈥攖hat鈥檚 as far as we go.
[To Streep] And you know what this thing is?
Streep: No!
Sondheim: No. Well, we decided on something that interested us mutually.
That鈥檚 exciting. Is it bigger than a bread box?
Sondheim: Don鈥檛 probe, because we鈥檝e done nothing but talk about it. It hasn鈥檛 gotten any farther than that. But we have, and I have not forgotten.
Streep: And you know, the kiss of death for a new project is to talk about it before it鈥檚 become a thing. It鈥檚 a kinahora. [She taps the table.] You don鈥檛 buy a crib鈥�
Sondheim: Yeah. And you don鈥檛 tell everybody 鈥淚鈥檓 pregnant!鈥� You don鈥檛 do that.
People do that now.
Streep: They post their sonograms!
Sondheim: Oh my God!
They do. Is that inviting the evil hand?
Sondheim: Yeah, I think it is. I think it鈥檚 inviting the curse.
But medical care is so much better than it was.
Sondheim: I鈥檒l tell you one thing: When you say, 鈥淕uess what? I had the baby yesterday,鈥� the listener is so bored. You know, you鈥檝e been waiting for the premiere? Enough already!
Finale, Late Conversations with Stephen Sondheim was released November 22 from Harper Collins. Click to purchase.
