It鈥檚 doubtful that any two stars have logged more hours in Revolutionary-era frock coats than Lin-Manuel Miranda and William Daniels. Roughly 50 years before Hamilton exploded on Broadway, Daniels created the role of persnickety founding father John Adams in the original Broadway production of 1776; the show became a political lightning rod and snagged the 1969 Tony Award for Best Musical. In 2016, , and 半岛体育 brought Miranda and Daniels together for a rambling, affectionate phone chat about the musical鈥檚 enduring legacy and the commonalities between the two pieces based in the history of the American revolution. Of course, they couldn鈥檛 help but talk about performing at the White House and the talismanic significance of Mr. Feeny.
In celebration of Independence Day, we鈥檙e republishing their conversation:
LIN-MANUEL MIRANDA: Mr. Daniels, I鈥檓 talking to you from the lip of the stage of the 46th Street Theatre鈥�
WILLIAM DANIELS: (laughs) Oh, my god.
LMM: 鈥攚here you did 1776, and where we鈥檙e doing Hamilton. It鈥檚 now the Richard Rodgers. My first question is: Which dressing room was yours? Were you stage right?
WD: I think I was. Stage right, with a little door facing the audience.
LMM: You either have our stage manager鈥檚 office or you have George Washington鈥檚 current dressing room.
WD: (laughs) How are you holding up, doing eight a week?
LMM: It鈥檚 a lot. But, you know鈥t鈥檚 all my fault. I really have no right to complain. I wrote the words that I say, and I gave myself a lot of them.
WD: Well, I would much prefer to have met you personally, rather than over the phone, and shake your hand for the great success you鈥檝e had with Hamilton.
LMM: Thank you, sir. Likewise.
WD: I really am looking forward to seeing it. We鈥檙e planning to go back to New York soon. I know it鈥檚 a very tough ticket to get鈥攂ut I鈥檒l give it a try.
LMM: I know a guy. I鈥檒l make it happen.
WD: (laughs) That鈥檚 very good. And I want to pay for them, for sure. I鈥檓 sure the producers keep a sharp eye on the weekly gross.
Before we get too deeply into ticketing, I want to talk a bit about 1776. Today we think of it as being in the pantheon of great musicals, but in the 1960s, the show was so unconventional that Sherman Edwards had a hard time getting it produced. 鈥淪ome of the biggest [names] in the theatre,鈥� he recalled, 鈥渓ooked at me and said, 鈥榃hat, a costume musical? A costume, historical musical?鈥欌� Mr. Daniels, do you remember your initial reaction to the idea?
WD: I read the script with a bunch of people at somebody鈥檚 apartment. Sherman Edwards was a former schoolteacher from New Jersey, and he had written not just the songs, but the script. It was a little stiff; I remember thinking, We鈥檙e in the middle of Vietnam, for Christ鈥檚 sake, and they鈥檙e waving the flag? I really had to be talked into doing it. At any rate, when the script came back to me, Peter Stone had taken ahold of it, and he鈥檇 gone back to the actual conversations in the Second Continental Congress. He had written them out on little cards and injected them into the script, and it made all the difference in the world. It added humor and conciseness and truth.
LMM: I love that anecdote, because it gets at something that I discovered in writing Hamilton: The truth is invariably more interesting than anything a writer could make up. That Peter Stone went back to the texts written by these guys, who were petty, brilliant, compromised鈥攖hat鈥檚 more interesting than any marble saints or plaster heroes you can create. And the picture you all painted together of John Adams was so powerful; in the opening scene, he calls himself 鈥渙bnoxious and disliked,鈥� which is a real quote. We don鈥檛 have a John Adams in our show, but we can just refer to him, and everyone just pictures you, Mr. Daniels.
WD: Really?
LMM: Yeah. 1776 created such an iconic, indelible image of Adams that we just know who that is now. It鈥檚 also, I think, one of the best books鈥攊f not the best鈥攅ver written for musical theatre, in that you long to see them talk to each other. Which almost never happens in a musical. Most musicals, you鈥檙e waiting for the next song to start. That book is so smart, and so engaging.
WD: Howard Da Silva played Ben Franklin, and he said to me, 鈥淏ill, we鈥檝e got an ending.鈥� (laughs) And we did; we always had that rousing stage picture of them all standing there and signing the Declaration of Independence.
How did you discover 1776, Lin-Manuel?
LMM: I came pretty late to 1776鈥攑robably college. I fell in love with the movie, and it鈥檚 a singular movie because it has that incredible original cast doing their thing. That鈥檚 very rare. Can you talk a little bit about that opportunity?
WD: That was Jack Warner. He saw the show and said, 鈥淚 want the whole cast.鈥�
LMM: That was amazing.
WD: I think it was a cheap way to go. Also, he felt he had made a mistake using Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady instead of sticking with Julie Andrews.
LMM: Wow.
WD: He didn鈥檛 want to make that mistake again, so he hired the entire cast鈥攁nd Peter Hunt, the director. I was disappointed in the film, because on a proscenium stage, the play had a certain style鈥攁nd film is very realistic. And yet it worked, and people watch it. Every year on July 4th, I get all these letters saying, 鈥淵ou鈥檝e made us look at history in a different way.鈥� As a matter of fact, doing the show got me interested in history. I think that may be the connection with your show, Lin-Manuel. I can鈥檛 think of a musical about American history coming before 1776.
LMM: I鈥檒l tell you, I think you鈥檙e absolutely right. 1776 certainly paved the way for Hamilton鈥攏ot just in that it鈥檚 about our founders, but also in that it engages fully with their humanity. I think it makes them accessible to us in a very real way. To begin an with everyone telling another guy to shut up鈥攚hat better way to pull these people that we see on statues and on our currency off of the pedestal? It鈥檚 an extraordinary opening number.
WD: That was always an interesting moment. Doing John Adams was one of the highlights of my acting career: you come out in front of the curtain, and the people are sitting there rustling their papers, and the men are probably wondering why they bought these tickets鈥攁nd then you start, 鈥淏y God, I have had this Congress!鈥� And it was always Con-gress. Sherman Edwards said, 鈥淵ou have to say Con-gress.鈥� That whole speech was done in front of the curtain, and then the curtain opened up and this whole choir of voices sang, 鈥淪it down, John!鈥� That really grabbed them. You know, Lin-Manuel, I saw the 60 Minutes piece about Hamilton, and I was so impressed. The way you put his story into music, into鈥擨 don鈥檛 know what you call it. Be-bop? Rap? It really grabs people. And it has to grab people. Otherwise, it could be kind of boring just to talk about history.
LMM: Someone said something really smart once: 鈥淵ou kind of have to work hard to make this story boring.鈥� My arc in learning about all this was actually similar to yours, Mr. Daniels, in that I didn鈥檛 know anything about this era of history until I started writing it. And as I fell in love with the research, and these stories, I found that if you make the political personal, you can get away with putting in as much information as you want鈥攁s long as it always has a personal angle, and they remain flesh-and-blood creatures. Once everyone starts spouting, then you鈥檙e dead in the water.
Abigail Adams wasn鈥檛 in Philadelphia during the events of 1776, but she shows up in the musical as an apparition. Did the writers insert her to humanize John Adams?
WD: Well, [his wife] Abigail was such a strong influence in his life, so it was important that she be in the show. I think it broke up the run of scenes in the Congress that we were able to get that song, in there.
And that song is largely made up of direct quotes from . Adams really did send his wife a 鈥淐atalogue of your Faults,鈥� and the song鈥檚 refrain鈥斺淚 am as I ever was, and ever shall be, yours, yours, yours鈥濃攃ame from a letter he wrote her in 1780.
WD: I鈥檝e read those letters, and they鈥檙e very moving.
LMM: One of the great legacies of John Adams鈥� is his correspondence with his wife, because through that correspondence, we get to see the human side of all of the founding fathers. He describes Hamilton as 鈥渢he bastard brat of a Scotch peddler,鈥� which is the line I riff off in . During his time with Ben Franklin in Paris, he writes letters home to Abigail, being like, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know what I鈥檓 doing here.鈥� In his frankness in his letters to her, we get to see the founders as people. And that鈥檚 an invaluable legacy, because all of these guys had one eye on the prize and the other eye on posterity. They鈥檙e all angling to look good, because they know they鈥檙e going to be talked about. In those letters, you鈥檝e got Adams being like, 鈥淲ell, Washington鈥檚 kind of boring.鈥� (laughs) He paints a very human side, because he鈥檚 kvetching to his wife.
WD: Adams was known for never really feeling that he had said enough. You couldn鈥檛 shut him up, you know.
LMM: Well, there鈥檚 a virtue in that. There鈥檚 a virtue in speaking up for what鈥檚 right. Adams and Hamilton were sort of the loudmouths of the founding fathers. (laughs) So it鈥檚 nice that they鈥檝e spoken up and had their moments in 1776 and Hamilton, respectively.
Like Hamilton, 1776 became something of a lightning rod for politicians. Vice President Hubert Humphrey said, 鈥淭his is how history ought to be taught,鈥� and in February 1970, President Nixon invited the show to play the White House鈥攎aking it the first full-scale Broadway musical ever to do so. What do you remember about that night?
WD: It was a negotiation that took over a year, actually, because the Nixon Administration 鈥淐ool, Cool Conservative Men.鈥�
Why?
WD: Because it was about them. (laughs) But our producer Stuart Ostrow said, 鈥淲e won鈥檛 do the show without doing 鈥楥ool, Cool Conservative Men.鈥欌� [Ed. note: By the time 1776 opened on Broadway, the word "Conservative" had been softened to the more euphemistic "Considerate." Daniels, and others involved with the production, still refer to the song by its original title.] Finally they allowed us to do the whole thing. But when Stuart called and said they鈥檇 asked us to come to the White House, I said, 鈥淔or Nixon?! You must be out of your mind.鈥� Most of the cast were Democrats, and felt the same way. There were about three Republicans. At any rate, we did go, and performed in the East Room. There was no room for the orchestra, so they were out in the hall, and they were playing too loud.
The United States Marine Band was part of the orchestra that night, which might explain the volume. After the show, Nixon got onstage and spoke, didn鈥檛 he?
WD: He stood next to Howard Da Silva and me. I think he inadvertently made an amusing remark, and when he got a laugh, then you couldn鈥檛 stop him. It was a very memorable experience being there. Practically all of the Senate and the House came to see it, and at the end, they stood up and raved and carried on. It reminded me of that saying鈥斺淧atriotism is the final refuge of a scoundrel.鈥� (laughs)
Lin-Manuel, you鈥檝e said that you hold a ten-dollar bill differently now because 鈥渢hat鈥檚 your dude.鈥� Mr. Daniels, did starring in 1776 change your view of John Adams? Had you studied him in school?
WD: To be honest, I did not have a proper education. I was working. I was in Life with Father on Broadway, and my sister and I were that worked at night. I went to a performers鈥� school, with all the kids who were in shows, but it was run out of somebody鈥檚 apartment and there was nothing going on there. I was never in class; I鈥檇 go in, say I had an appointment, and then go and read the New York Times. (laughs) Somehow I decided that I wanted to go to Northwestern University, and they sent the fellow who ran my school a questionnaire about my grades. He called and said, 鈥淏ill, you鈥檙e applying to college?鈥� I said, 鈥淵es, yes, I am.鈥� He said, 鈥淚 have this form here about your grades鈥攂ut, you know, we had a fire here, and all my records are lost. Do you remember any of your grades?鈥� A light went on in my head. I said, 鈥淵eah, I think I do.鈥� (laughs) We went down the whole list and made up a whole bunch of numbers. I鈥檇 never had American History, and I gave myself an 88.
Just an 88?
WD: (laughs) I didn鈥檛 get greedy.
Does it ever feel ironic, then, that an entire generation knows and loves you for on Boy Meets World?
WD: Mr. Feeny? I never thought about the irony of it.
LMM: Listen, if we start talking about Mr. Feeny, we鈥檙e gonna be on the phone another hour. (laughs) Because I am the same age as Ben Savage, and you helped raise me too, sir. But that鈥檚 a conversation for another day. We鈥檒l have that in person.
One last question: Stephen Sondheim has said, 鈥淟in knows where musical theatre comes from, and he cares about where it comes from.鈥� Why is that sense of history important? What do we lose if we stop performing, and listening to, great musicals from the past?
LMM: Well, the answer is simple鈥攜ou learn from what inspires you. Musical theatre, when all the elements are clicking, takes us to emotional places nothing else can touch. It鈥檚 very tricky to get right. Why would you not want to learn from the ones that got you there?
Matt Weinstock is a writer based in Brooklyn.
